Conversations with Jesus - Final Thoughts with Jonathan Caldwell

Jonathan Caldwell, a gospel preacher working with the congregation in Southport, IN, joins us this week for some final thoughts on the three conversations we've covered this month. Jesus with Nicodemus, Jesus with the Rich Young Ruler and Jesus with the woman at the well. 

Transcript

 Hello and welcome back to Cultivating Growth. I want to thank everyone for joining us again this week. This is our last episode of the month. We've been talking about conversations that Jesus has with different individuals throughout his time on Earth. We've covered three of those over the course of the month, and we're gonna wrap all of that up this week.

We have a special guest with us to do that. Jeremy will introduce him in just a moment. But with that, let's get right to the conversation today.

Well, John, you made mention that we are at the end of the month. We've talked about some conversations that Jesus has had, uh, specifically with Nicodemus, uh, the rich young ruler, the woman on, the woman at the well, and we have with us Jonathan Caldwell. He's gonna spend some time with us and as we kind of close these conversations out, we've made mention each and every week, and I think it is important.

You know, for us, you know, Jesus is teaching all the time. I mean, throughout the gospels, he's teaching all the time and he's teaching to massive groups of people, multitudes, thousands of people at times. Sometimes he has maybe just his apostles, 12, 15 people at a time. But yet also we find these instances where Jesus has a moment to spend with just one person, and we've kind of spent some time there, and I think there's a lot.

To be pulled always from the actual teaching that happens. But I think there's also something to be said about techniques that Jesus used in the midst of these interactions and, and how he went about it. And we've made mention for us the application. Probably is gonna be more in a one-on-one sense mm-hmm.

In a conversation we have versus I'm standing and I've got thousands of people, you know, kind of out in front of us. So, uh, Jonathan, I know that you've listened, you know, to each of the conversations that we've had already and what kind of start in the John's gospel world with the John three and four, with Nicodemus and the woman at the well.

And so we'll kind of throw it your way. Uh, maybe something that stands out to you for those in those conversations, and we'll just kind of take it from there. Well, Jeremy, you had mentioned the, some of the similarities and the comparison and contrast with Jesus, or, or excuse me, with, uh, Nicodemus and the woman at the well and.

You even made mention that. Whoa. Well, that's in the next chapter. If you take out the chapter break, you have a really cool contrast between these two characters. Y'all have made mention of the fact that Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night. Well, the woman at the well is in the middle of the day. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's at noon.

And uh, and one of the themes you see in. Book of John is this emphasis on light and darkness. And darkness is, uh, sometimes evil. It's sometimes unbelief. It's sometimes just not understanding something. Ignorance. Uh, and it's interesting that Jesus accuses, uh, Nicodemus of not understanding when he should because he's a teacher of the people.

Mm-hmm. Then you have this woman who's you almost would think, you know, just a. You know, maybe some little redneck of the day. And, uh, and I'm from Alabama, I can say that. Um, and yet she gets it and it's in the middle of the day and she's, it, it's just her world is opening so much so that she has to run off and get everybody else and bring them in.

He's a man, she's a woman. Uh, he is, uh. You know, someone who's religious, uh, and, uh, probably wealthy. She is obviously not, he is moral, she is not. Uh, and and so you have this setup and you're almost going to think, oh, he's gonna get it. Mm-hmm. She's not. Yeah. And yet she's the one that gets it and then runs off, as y'all made mention, uh, to.

For her to then go and evangelize. Mm-hmm. And, uh, the success she has with that. And then they come back. The passage you ended with last week that they come in and say, we believe now, not because of her word, but because of what we've heard Jesus say. And so just a, a some, I always feel weird patting the gospel writers on the back for doing a good job.

It's like, good job, holy Spirit. Uh, but it, it really sets up this wonderful contrast. And then you, you really see, uh, the, the way that Jesus deals with each one of these very different characters. Mm-hmm. Uh, he doesn't deal with everybody the same way. Uh, he responds to him a little bit differently. Uh, and, and then I'll, I'll give up the microphone here.

Um, he lets 'em all leave. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh. Nicodemus leaves and then eventually comes back. She leaves and immediately comes back with other people. Mm-hmm. And then he lets the rich young ruler leave who. At least as far as we know in scripture doesn't come back. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, that some, some interesting things there to think about.

Yeah. I appreciate you kind of bringing up the contrast between them. 'cause I, I had not necessarily thought of that other than kind of the more broad concept that Jesus is talking to a lot of different kinds of people, but. Yeah, it almost does seem as if there is some intentionality in the contrast that is shown between these two chapters and these two conversations that Jesus has because on the surface, these two people that he talks to, Nicodemus and the woman at the well couldn't have been more different, right?

I mean, they were literally the opposites of each other in every scenario. From their race, from their wealth, from their knowledge of scripture and their religious standing, their moral character, all of these things, they were total opposites of each other. And yet Jesus saw value in having conversations with each of them, and he saw value, not just in that moment, the conversation that they were having, but then the subsequent effect that that conversation was going to have on others.

Not to mention the fact that those conversations are still having effects on millions today, right. You know, hundreds, thousands of years after these conversations took place. And so I, I think it is appropriate to kind of bring that up and, and highlight that. And certainly if you're studying through the gospel of John, you kind of have the opportunity to see that more clearly.

With some of these stories though, they tend to get pulled out and talked about that way. Well, because. You know, tonight we're studying John three, right? That's it. Next Wednesday we'll study John four. That's, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And when you do it that way, you kind of lose some of what you were just describing of the obvious contrast that the Holy Spirit is wanting to make here.

And really the point again, being Jesus wants to talk to everybody regardless of their standing, regardless of their nationality, regardless of their gender. He wants to talk. To the person and when Jesus has a chance to talk to that person, man, amazing things happen as a result of that. Yeah. I think another thing that kind of stands out to me, especially with these two conversations, you know, going off of, you know, what you had just said, you know, Jesus wants to talk and, and that supersedes.

Other things that are happening. Right. And sometimes I think, you know, we miss that. I think personally we miss that. You know, you can go back to, you know, the story at the Nicodemus, and we, and we rightly so, but we really, you know, kind of hem in on the fact that, listen, he comes to Jesus by night and, uh, you know, he, he doesn't want anybody to, to know that he's coming around.

We, later on in the gospel of John, he comes out into the light. You know, certainly, but you know, he's coming to Jesus in, in the darkness. He's coming to Jesus in the middle of the night. And we make a point about that. But yet at the same time, it's the middle of the night for Jesus and he's busy. He's got things going on.

But yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't say, Hey, come back in the morning. Uh, you know, I, I'm sleeping, or whatever the case he takes that time. He, he's there, you know, with this woman. He's on a journey in John chapter four. He's, he's on a trip. They're walking from one place to the next and, and he stops to. To, to get a drink of water.

But yet he pushes all of that aside for this conversation and, and he seems to be able to kind of push the, even with the rich young ruler, you know, kind of other teaching is going on, and he spends, he pushes that aside to kind of focus in on this one. Mm-hmm. You know, individual, he's a master at that.

And I, I think that is a lesson for us because we're apt to find convenient moments to talk about Jesus. And, and if it's a convenient moment to talk about Jesus. Yeah, I'm all for that. But if it's a less than convenient moment mm-hmm. You know, maybe let's schedule, let's schedule a time Right. That we can.

But Jesus is, we don't ever see him scheduling a time whe whether it's in a conversation like this, uh, whether it's in a miracle, you know, what he, you know, healing or what he's not scheduling time. If there is a need, if there is an opportunity. He takes it. And, and I think that's certainly what we see in John three and four for sure.

I think it's interesting what you just mentioned, uh, that the disciples are actually going into town to get food. Mm-hmm. And when they come back, Jesus says, oh, I have food you don't know about. And they're like, wait, did somebody bring him food? Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where'd this guy get food all of of a sudden?

Right. Right. But no, I mean, I think you're absolutely right. And I, I, listen, I've been guilty of this, of like, listen, I got a lot going on. You know, let's, let's get something on the calendar. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with, with that, inherently, but there, there is something to be said for striking while the iron is hot.

Yes. And when Jesus saw opportunity, he took it. And regardless of the time of day or where he was or who was in front of him. You know, we, when it comes to Nicodemus, here's a guy who's he, he, there's genuine curiosity about Nicodemus and he acknowledges right out of the gate that, listen, I, I, I know that you're not normal.

You're not just another guy. Like, I understand that, and I've got some questions for you. I've got some curiosity around this. Obviously with the rich young ruler, I mean, he opens the door by asking the question, what do I need to do to inherit internal life when, when these, uh, doors open? We've gotta be ready, we've gotta be ready to have those conversations.

Because listen, if Jesus told Nicodemus, Hey, let, let's schedule something for tomorrow morning. Nicodemus may not come back. And certainly with this woman at the well, he's likely never to see this woman again. And so you gotta take advantage of these opportunities when they become available to us. And I think Jesus has given us a really good example of just how intentional he was about striking while the iron hot, even pushing stigmas away.

Right, that's right. I mean, you know, you, you have, you know, Nicodemus coming a Pharisee for Jesus. Be like, listen, the the Pharisees are, are on my side right now. I mean, they, they are the ones actively against me in, in so many ways. And of course, you know, they're in John chapter four with this Samaritan.

Strike one woman, strike two, stranger strike three. Right? You have all of these things, but he pushes through all of that. Yeah. It, it really is remarkable when you think about each of these stories, the three that we're focusing on this month, he doesn't have. Relationships with any of these three people prior to these conversations, at least not that we're privy to in any way.

And, and yet he is able to almost out of the blue, create connection with, with these individuals in a way that is incredibly admirable, I think, and, and really start to dig deep very quickly. And I, I know I struggle with that sometimes. You know, how do you move? From surface level conversation to deep, meaningful conversation.

Mm-hmm. That's a, that's a challenging skill to master. But man, Jesus was amazing at it and he used these techniques regard regardless of where the person was or where they're coming from to be able to move past the surface level. Uh, friendly chit chat. To, let's talk about the deep spiritual matters that need to be addressed here.

What, what about the way that Jesus is willing to be confrontational? Yeah. Yeah. That, you know, he's, he's telling the rich young ruler. Who is a very religious, uh, super moral guy. Such an upstanding guy also, he's got some money. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And boy, we could really use him in our group. And yet Jesus challenges him right on the point he needs.

And with Nicodemus, he, he challenges him. Why don't you understand these things? Mm. And with the woman at the, well, he goes right after her marital situation and. I, I know when I'm talking with people and I hear about something that I know is gonna be a hangup. Yep. You hear about that person who's had multiple marriages.

Mm-hmm. And you're thinking, oh man. And yet Jesus goes right after that. Yeah. We, we almost sometimes wait, we back off, uh, on that issue. And yet, you know, Jesus doesn't have, uh, a lot of trouble being confrontational and especially that the passage and y'all emphasize this, uh, with the rich young ruler that.

Jesus loved him. Yeah. You know, and, and when people see that, when they understand that, you know, that confrontation can, can be a little bit softer, can be a a, a way to open up some of these conversations, give certainly gives you something to talk about. Yeah, I think that's a good point. You know, 'cause I'm with you sometimes.

I, I almost. I'm hoping, you know, maybe somebody else will have that conversation Yes. With them. You know, or, or maybe that one will kind of take care of itself somehow, so we don't really have to talk about that and, you know, shame on me for ever having those thoughts. But you're right, Jesus doesn't shy away from any of that.

He's like, listen, this needs to be addressed. We, we gotta talk about it. Let's get this out in the open. Let's have the conversation. And when I think, I think when people see that openness and that sincerity and the love that you mentioned, they respond differently to those challenging conversations. And certainly that then puts the emphasis on us to make sure that we approach those conversations in love, in kindness, in gentleness, but also with a seriousness that.

They deserve and, and not shy away from those things or allow others to sense our discomfort with some of these difficult conversations, but to approach them boldly as, as Jesus does. I think that's a great example. I, I think in a lot of ways, I mean, even certainly, Jesus is able to show his care and his love in the midst of these conversations, but I think e even the point of.

Him being willing to even have this conversation showcases some of that, right? Mm-hmm. That e, even having the conversation kind of opens that up. You know, with Nicodemus, he comes to him at nighttime. Jesus is willing in that moment to, to sit down and have a conversation with him. Well, that immediately opens, you know, Nicodemus up here is someone that's willing to, you know, sit down and talk to me.

Certainly this woman at the, well, even she startled by it, you know, even at first. But she's like, well, this. This guy's willing to have, you know, this conversation. And so instantly they're, you know, they're opened up. And I think sometimes that's all it takes. Mm-hmm. I is, you, you just, I'm, I'm willing to listen.

I, I'm willing to talk to you. I'm willing to look you in the eye. I'm willing to, to be concerned. I'm willing to, you know, to be serious. I'm willing to have all of those things. And, and I think sometimes we would be surprised, you know, how people react to that because they, there, there's now sensing. Some sincerity.

Mm-hmm. And I think most certainly, Nicodemus, certainly the rich young ruler and you know this woman at the well, they're gonna see that sincerity, you know, in Jesus for sure. There's another thing about these stories that as we've been talking, I, I kind of see some similarities in these three stories that maybe hadn't before.

Uh, but another one that I'm, I'm kind of interested on what you all think about this. In each of these stories, there is some shock value to what Jesus says, and I don't think he's doing that just. For attention's sake. I don't, I don't think he's doing that. But when it comes to Nicodemus, he talks about being born again.

Mm-hmm. Right? Nicodemus is like, what are you talking about? How can you do that? It's not possible. And, and the woman at the, well, he tells her about her marital status, things that no one else would be able to tell her about, and really shocks her in that the rich young ruler, Hey, go sell everything you own to follow me.

An extreme statement. And, and Jesus does have a tendency to do those types of. Things because following Jesus does demand extremes on our part. And, and he uses that as a tactic, I think, to draw people in and to immediately get their attention to what he is saying. But, but I just noticed as we were talking, and he does that in each of these three stories, and he uses that tactic to his advantage to, to really draw in his, his audience, but also to challenge them to think on a deeper level.

You know, and being born again, I gotta, I gotta think about that. 'cause on the surface I know that's not possible. That seems ridiculous. I gotta think about that. And then obviously somebody telling you something about your life, something personal that they would've no business knowing is going to immediately make you think about who you're talking to.

And then, you know this rich individual who has a lot of money, who morally is relatively upstanding, but now being told in order to inherit eternal life, he has to sell it all. I mean that, that's gonna be an extremely shocking statement to hear. But Jesus utilizes those, uh, kinds of statements, uh, for his purpose.

And I'm just kind of curious is, is there a way in which we can do some of the same things today in an appropriate way? Not just for the shock value that some of those statements bring, but to draw in our audience and to challenge people to think on deeper levels than perhaps they had been previously?

So I was thinking about what you were saying about going sell everything you have, and he's told to do this, to be. Right. And yet his view would've been, wait, I have all of these things because I'm godly. Mm. That's what Proverbs teaches, right? And so now he's being told to go and give these things away, and yet that really is.

The, and y'all, y'all talked about this in, in the podcast on the rich young ruler, is that's the call for all of us. Now, I, I don't think that Jesus is calling for everybody to go and sell all that they have. This, this particular person, his riches are on the throne of his heart where God should be. And, and y'all made mention of this, that, you know, whatever it is, your job, your friends.

Whatever relationships there may be, but that is the extreme to which we're called, and a lot of times we, we make it sound like serving Christ is, oh, it's just a small change. Mm-hmm. You know? Oh, well if you wanna lose some weight, just, just cut out. You know, so does mm-hmm. And a small change and, and you'll be just fine.

And yet that's not what, what serving Christ is it, it's a complete, completely new thing. It's, it's a, uh, complete revolution of your life. And, and it's not just this small thing. And so I think. We should be a little more upfront with that. It's interesting. At the very beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, right after the, the normal beatitudes, he gives that beatitude that says, blessed are those who are persecuted.

Mm-hmm. He doesn't hide anything there. He, you know, like at the end of a, a medicine commercial, you know, side effects may include blah, blah, blah. Uh, as, as they talk about those serious things, they put 'em at the end, uh, and try and hide it a little bit. They speed up the volume a little bit. And yet Jesus is very upfront with what this is gonna require, what this is gonna take, and the extreme nature of that.

And maybe we, maybe we hide, kind of put it in an egg somewhere and hide it a little bit. Oh, we'll talk about that later when upfront Jesus says, this is what you need to deal with. Yeah. I, I think you see that too, even in the way that. In the analogies that he uses it, it is the analogies of extreme needs.

Right. In a lot of ways you have this, you know, su superior importance. He's talking to Nicodemus and he's, the analogy is being born, right? I mean, it it is, it is that level he's speaking with, you know, the woman at the, well, it is. Drinking water, right? And so you have these, you know, these supreme needs that he's able to, you know, kind of work off of.

And, and I think that, you know, that that really goes to it. One other thing that I'll add, and I was just thinking about when both of you guys were talking. I Jesus. Now, in a God-like supernatural way, certainly had an understanding of who these people were. He understood Nicodemus and, and what he understood and knew.

He certainly understood the, this woman at the well and what, what she was all about. Even her, what her life was all about. The rich young ruler, he understood his. You know, in a lot of ways. But I think even, you know, from our application of that, without those supernatural abilities, you know, just relationship and listening mm-hmm.

You know, to certain people and, you know, being, uh, you know, available to listen and, and to gain, you know, that information is always gonna make a difference now. And maybe having these more difficult, straightforward. Uh, extreme, uh, maybe confrontational, if you will, conversations if, if we're able to, you know, make use of, you know, this very real relationship or very real information that we have.

And, and that goes to now, you know, to our listening skills and, you know, and all of those things. It just puts us in a better place to get to the truth, and that's ultimately what Jesus does. It, it is, I'm gonna deliver the truth. Maybe I won't have an opportunity to talk to Nicodemus again. Maybe I'll never see this woman again.

Maybe I'll never see this, this young fella again. And so I, I need to get the truth to them. Mm-hmm. And, uh, he's gonna do so in a very urgent kind of way. But yet, I mean, he, I mean, he's the best at it that there ever was. Right? Yeah. And so it, it, and it comes down to us. Can, can I, can I deliver urgency? But yet cannot in truth, but yet still do so in a meek mm-hmm.

Uh, and gentle kinda way. And sometimes that, that's an obstacle for sure. Yeah. You know, Jesus is all about urgency. Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, we, we, he had a roughly three years during the time of his ministry and he knew the clock was ticking and he had things that he needed to do and accomplish, and teachings that he wanted to get out there.

Everything about him screamed. Urgency and, and yet he still managed to keep that in its proper place and use it appropriately without that leading to panic of some sort of anxiety. But, but there is a sense in which we should have the same. I mean, there, there is urgency to telling others about Jesus.

There is urgency to addressing a sin that may be in our lives or in the lives of someone else. We need to approach that with a level of urgency and we need to help them understand the urgency of these things as well. And you're right, I think Jesus does such a, a great job of not creating panic in someone, but making sure they understand this is the most important thing that you can be thinking about right now.

There is nothing greater. Then thinking about your relationship with God and your eternal life, and, and we need to make sure we're baking that urgency into, uh, the gospel message that we are taking to others and try and help them feel that urgency in their life. So I, well, have y'all ever heard a sermon somewhere around Christmas as to why the church doesn't celebrate Christmas?

Oh, yeah. So I had someone tell me one time that. It, it just made them my rate when they would hear these sermons, because it's likely the largest crowd you're gonna be preaching to that year. Mm-hmm. And or either that or Mother's Day. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And what you're gonna do is make them feel awkward for being there.

Because it is Christmas. Mm-hmm. When what you should be doing is preaching the gospel mm-hmm. To, to have the, having that urgency. Yep. When this may be the only time they hear it. Yeah. And there is the, there's the opportunity and we, we, we decide to do what this other relatively minor thing. Right. Let me ask you all the question real quick while I, while I still have the microphone.

Do you think the Samaritan woman is trying to change the subject? Or do we give her the benefit of the doubt and say, oh, well she does recognize that he's a prophet and she has this religious question. And so, oh, now that, now that I'm talking to someone who might have an answer, let me ask this question.

I've been thinking about or. She made to feel very uncomfortable because of what Jesus has just said, and I don't want to talk about that. Let's talk about this other thing that's interesting. I had not necessarily considered it in that, uh, in that way, but I mean it is. Jesus does bring up the fact, hey, you know, you've been, you've got been married five times, and then she immediately goes to, uh, okay, so you're a prophet.

Tell me about, you know, these differences in our worshiping practices that isn't interesting. Is she trying to change the subjects? Maybe she is. It also seems as if perhaps she now understands I'm talking to someone significant. And one of the biggest differences that divides us is you as a Jew. Yes. And your worshiping practices, and me as a Samaritan and my worshiping practices.

And so maybe there is an opportunity to kind of get some clarity on those things. So I, I guess, I mean, I don't know, maybe it could be read both ways, but it seems as if there is some sincerity to the question that she's asking on the heels of this guy has now revealed himself to be someone. Who has some answers, he knows more than I do.

Let me see if he can provide some clarity on this question that I have. Yeah. I'll only add, I if she is trying to kind of change the subject or head into a different direction, he very quickly is able to get it right back, you know, into the direction that, you know, that he, that he wants to go and, and, you know, yeah.

It's an, you know, it's an interesting thought. I mean, he's. And she moves on very quickly from the husband's side of things, right? Yeah. And she's like, let's talk about, so let's talk about something a little bit different. Well, but yeah. He's then able to tell you, it's like, well, we could talk about it. And then he is right back to back, right where he needs to be.

He starts with this living water. Mm-hmm. And still ends up with I who speak am speaking to you. And he, right. So he, he. He deals with their question, but is still able to come back around to where he wanted to go. Yeah. Uh, and you know, so with that, maybe some application on that is we need a good knowledge of what we're talking about.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We, we need to be able, and obviously there's all these tangential, uh, subjects that we could talk about, but if we know what the scripture says, then we can always. Make a, a kind of a curve around, around it and come back to where we need to be taking someone, which is to Jesus, right?

Don't let them derail the conversation. Right. But also at the same time, validate questions that they have, concerns that they raise, but make sure we're coming back to Jesus and his message ultimately. Yeah. So much that we can learn, you know, certainly in, you know, what Jesus has to say, but certainly in.

How Jesus approaches these conversations and certainly appreciate this conversation. Uh, not just today, but this month, but we'll close there and, and we've spent a lot of time this month kind of talking, you know, about Jesus and certainly the power and the authority with which he, uh, he speaks and the impact that his words, you know, have had in each of these con.

Conversations and, and certainly his words could continue to have impact today. We'll close with the end of Matthew chapter seven, the end of the Sermon on the Mount, the response to the very words from Jesus where it says that when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his teaching for he taught as one, having authority and not as.

Thank you for listening this week. If you haven't already done so, we'd appreciate it if you would take just a second to subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you're listening and rate and review the show so we can continue to spread the good news of Jesus as widely and effectively as possible.

Thanks again for joining us this week, and we'll talk to you again next week.